path: root/meeting-logs/20180812.txt

<ulm> !proj council
<willikins> (council@gentoo.org) dilfridge, k_f, leio, slyfox, ulm, whissi,
            williamh
<dilfridge> woof
<ulm> Agenda:
       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/49e642140724ad0d22847e4e6798cc84
<ulm> roll call
* K_F here
* Whissi is here
* dilfridge here
* slyfox here
* leio here                                                             [21:01]
<ulm> WilliamH?
* WilliamH here                                                         [21:02]
<ulm> first topic, chairs
<ulm> we still have to fill them for January to June 2019
<K_F> I can always do jan/feb                                           [21:03]
<dilfridge> let me do afterwards
<ulm> k
<WilliamH> K_F: heh, I can also. :-)
<dilfridge> march, april
<WilliamH> or I can do Mar/Apr.
<Whissi> I can, but I don't have to :)
<ulm> anyone for May and June?
<leio> maybe we should leave the double ones to those that are late to
       volunteer their months ;)
<dilfridge> I dont really care that much but later is better for me     [21:04]
* WilliamH will take Mar/Apr if that's ok.
<Whissi> May / June is OK for me.
<ulm> so, K_F jan/feb, WilliamH mar/apr, Whissi may/june?
<WilliamH> sgtm                                                         [21:05]
<K_F> wfm
<ulm> dilfridge: happy with that?
<dilfridge> sure, less work for me :P
<WilliamH> ;-)
<ulm> next, open bugs
<leio> so dilfridge has none? :)
<ulm> leio: right
<dilfridge> the first year where I'm skipping :)                        [21:06]
<leio> I didn't know that was an option :)
<slyfox> :)
<Whissi> Damn. :)
<leio> then we should employ your summary writing skills
<leio> anyhow, next then
<ulm> bug 637328
<willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/637328 "GLEP 14 needs to be updated";
            Documentation, GLEP Changes; IN_P; mgorny:security
<K_F> leio: there is normally someone without since 7 members and 12 months
<dilfridge> I'll work on the TeX document anyway...
<slyfox> that bug is open for quite a while
<K_F> yeah, security project is working on updating the GLEP, its not
      currently ready to be presented, but it is moving forwards internally
                                                                        [21:07]
<ulm> k
<ulm> bug 642072
<willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/642072 "Joint venture to deal with
            copyright issues"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; CONF;
            mgorny:council
<K_F> one of the reasons it is taking some time is it is moving in direction
      of GLEP 48 for QA, where Security has a say in stable arches
<ulm> aka GLEP 76
<dilfridge> how far is this? I thought we were essentially ready?       [21:08]
<K_F> and broader scope wrt upstream contributions / mailing lists as have
      been discusssed previously
<K_F> dilfridge: the joint venture or security part?
<dilfridge> glep 76
<K_F> right, DCO seems ready enough there
<ulm> some discussions ongoing
<ulm> nothing publicly visible though                                   [21:09]
<dilfridge> oh right the infernal discussion about "our dco or standard dco"
<K_F> I'm actually fine with the dual variant, i.e specify if it is kernel DCO
<dilfridge> yes that is a practical and good option
<K_F> which obviously can't be used to assigning licenses etc           [21:10]
<WilliamH> With know knowledge really, I would prefer the standard dco
<ulm> maybe I've found a wording where we can use the kernel one
<ulm> but it's not in public git yet
<ulm> anyway, should be ready soonish
<slyfox> nice
* dilfridge likes the dual variant too (and "our" dco *is* better wording)
                                                                        [21:11]
<K_F> yeah, the kernel one is fine for them, but not for us
<K_F> if we feel we need lawyer review we should request it
<K_F> which might be a good thing anyways
<ulm> move on?                                                          [21:12]
<WilliamH> This is for after the meeting, but I don't understand what's wrong
           with the kernel one.
<K_F> wfm
<K_F> WilliamH: it won't work directly for us as a distro
<dilfridge> WilliamH: seriously? this was a weeks-long discussion, and you
            missed all of it?
<ulm> WilliamH: right, let's discuss it after the meeting               [21:13]
<K_F> week/months
<K_F> ulm: but yeah, that should be a proper item when its ready
<K_F> so moving on is fine, I'm curious to learn your working at some point
      though
<ulm> let's move on, open floor
<ulm> I've one item myself
<ulm> can we exchange phone numbers again?                              [21:14]
<ulm> per e-mail, that is
<dilfridge> \o/
<dilfridge> sure
<Whissi> YEah, per mail
<K_F> sure, that doesn't require topic here though, lets do on alias
<WilliamH> sure.
<b-man> 5743290326
<b-man> Call me... Maybw
<K_F> in particular for new members etc
<ulm> I'll send an e-mail after the meeting then
<slyfox> sounds good
<dilfridge> 32 16 8                                                     [21:15]
<leio> I have a note and a discussion
<ulm> dilfridge: oh my :)
<K_F> my item for open floor is an encouragement for additional work for PR
      project, in particular if there is anything we can do to increase US
      precense
<K_F> the PR project today is mostly an ad-hoc group of the people already
      doing PR.. but its very EU and japan centric                      [21:16]
<K_F> is there anything we can do to encourage US activity?
<leio> pimp the job to potential volunteers and empower them
<K_F> not necessarily something to decide on in this meeting (then it'd be a
      proper item), but we need more recruiting and availibility        [21:17]
<dilfridge> well, technically we have maffblaster, dabbott in the team
<dilfridge> and maffblaster is certainly active
<K_F> it isn't even just about conferences but participations in LUGs etc
                                                                        [21:18]
<K_F> but there have been discussions of divergence in gentoo developer and
      foundation membership over the years etc, where EU is becomming more
      relevant                                                          [21:19]
<K_F> so we might want a greater effort bringing in US developers
<dilfridge> fwiw I think your analysis (that the US developership is more
            company driven while EU/Asia is more volunteer driven) is correct
                                                                        [21:20]
<K_F> which on some level is good for Gentoo in that we get the resources, but
      it doesn't help new recruiting                                    [21:21]
<leio> I find we need to have more interesting things going on for people to
       be excited about Gentoo, too. Then PR just "happens" somewhat.
<leio> our current visible PR activity mainly feels to be from a vocal
       minority of systemd haters.                                      [21:22]
<dilfridge> hmm?
<dilfridge> what do you mean?
<K_F> in any case, nothing to decide for today, so fine with moving on, but we
      should keep in mind trying to encourage developers to be more active in
      their communities
<WilliamH> leio: not really, I haven't heard a lot of complaining about
           systemd as of late.                                          [21:23]
<K_F> and also in upstream communities, instead of carrying local patches etc
<WilliamH> K_F++ I'm not a fan of carrying local patches either.        [21:24]
<ulm> anything else for this item?
<Whissi> K_F: Can you tell us an example you think of how council help here?
<ulm> leio: you had something too?
<leio> I mean that it'd be a whole lot easier to PR when we have various
       innovative stuff to talk about
<b-man> I'd he happy to promote in U.S.                                 [21:25]
<leio> yeah, as a note, I'd like to request my fellow council members to be
       properly prepared for meetings, and participate and research in the
       necessary topics beforehand and in time as well
<dilfridge> for that we need to code something instead of discussing
            metastructure
<leio> and as a discussion, how would people feel about occasionally
       informally having voice chats
<K_F> Whissi: not specifically, hence it being a good discussion item
<K_F> we might need to pay the airfare and booth presense at certain
      conferences                                                       [21:26]
<WilliamH> I have no problem with voice chats. it would have to be evenings or
           weekends for me though.
<b-man> As discussed with K_F in -trustees, I do think we need more U.S. PR
<K_F> for two developers to man the booth, etc
<b-man> ++on company driven.
<dilfridge> no objections to voice chat                                 [21:27]
<b-man> Damned capatilism
<K_F> and get a proper writeup of it with pictures/documentation afterwards to
      send out
<WilliamH> b-man: ;-)
<K_F> at the leats a blog writeup on a planet blog
<K_F> WilliamH: voice chats?
<WilliamH> K_F: I have no problem with that.
<K_F> WilliamH: where I know gentoo has been mentioned is in various podcasts
                                                                        [21:28]
<b-man> I would also add to open floor: if the foundation can support the
        council in anyway monetarily or legally please let us know.
<K_F> WilliamH: e.g Linuxpodden in swedish we had a nice talk
<K_F> so many something like that in US?
<b-man> K_F: we have a lot of things.  I think it is just distance that
        precludes most from attending.
<WilliamH> Hmm, Is dabbott still running linuxcrazy? He used to talk about
           Gentoo a lot.
<K_F> b-man: right, but podcasts etc won't be an issue for distance     [21:29]
<leio> K_F: I think that was about my topic of speaking on voice between
       council members occasionally.
<b-man> E.g. I am east coast, but many confs on West coast.
<b-man> That's a 4 hour flight.
<K_F> leio: ah, I missed that, I'm not really in favor, voice is normally bad
      signal/noise ratio and no direct logging
<b-man> K_F: sure, podcasts would be good.  I will look for some to discuss
        Gentoo on.
<K_F> so I always prefer text > voice
<K_F> but podcasts, or even creating a promotional video similar to what
      fedora and suse is doing                                          [21:30]
<K_F> can be rather interesting
<K_F> to try to bring more people into the community
<b-man> K_F: can you PM me that Fedora and Suse are doing?
<b-man> I'll have a look.
<slyfox> i liked linuxcrazy podcasts with random gentoo devs :)         [21:31]
* b-man likes Fedoras magazine
<K_F> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Rn0iQEpc8
<K_F> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYRlTISvjww
<WilliamH> Yeah, it looks like dabbott isn't doing any more linuxcrazy
           podcasts. :(                                                 [21:32]
<K_F> b-man: will look through emails for some fedora ones..
<b-man> Cool
<ulm> anything else for open floor?                                     [21:33]
<leio> but essentially they are companies with paid workers that can also
       outsource PR media work when necessary, and they back it up with
       driving the new linux ecosystem developments with that paid workforce..
<b-man> ulm: cats
<K_F> b-man: if you want a copy of the linuxpodden Klondike and I were in in
      swedish that is also online :)
<b-man> I don't speak English well, let alone Swedish.
* dilfridge tries hard to refrain from Møøse jokes.                     [21:34]
<leio> Who from council members is willing to try getting to know ideas for
       gentoo and such things with other members over voice?
<leio> better to brainstorm things.
<dilfridge> works for me
<b-man> I love voice.
<ulm> wfm too                                                           [21:35]
* WilliamH is willing to
<K_F> I don't really see how it improves things, but if we are to do that,
      what platform etc? it should at least be open source
* b-man looks forward to correcting bad English :-P
<K_F> it should also have recording capability to ease writing up summaries
<b-man> K_F: It allows much further discussion/brainstorming with a magnitude
        less time investment.
<WilliamH> That kills the best ones for me unfortunately, hangouts or skype.
                                                                        [21:36]
<b-man> Also, it allows getting to know people
<K_F> b-man: in my experience it is the opposite, much easier to multi-task in
      text
<leio> I don't care, mumble or skype is best for me.
<dilfridge> how about keeping it informal instead (no summaries, only
            additional to normal meeting)?
<b-man> Yes, informal.
<K_F> and also getting things contextualized
<leio> yes, I was proposing fully informal
<leio> I don't dream of holding meetings over voice just yet.
<b-man> It just helps getting to know folks.                            [21:37]
* dilfridge imagines banging a real gavel in a virtual conference room
<b-man> Understand their perspective, ideas, and emotions.
<K_F> I don't necessarily see voice being better than text for that, but..
<b-man> Saying one thing in text and saying it in voice is completely
        different.
<K_F> meeting up with various council members in person otoh has been very
      useful                                                            [21:38]
<b-man> Hence... Endless bikeshedding.
<K_F> so in that case I'd bring it to next step and have an actual meetup
      somewhere
<K_F> and ask for foundation money for council members to meet where it is
      most economically efficient
<WilliamH> K_F: that would require international travel ;-)
<K_F> and stay for a weekend and work out things
<b-man> Seems reasonable.
<K_F> WilliamH: that might not be much of an issue                      [21:39]
<b-man> In person > voice.
<ulm> K_F: maybe that's best done in connection with another event?
<dilfridge> ulm: where's the geographical center of the council now?
<K_F> in particular if doing it around a conference
<K_F> e.g day before FOSDEM
<b-man> In person > voice > text
<K_F> where devs are likely to be anyways
<dilfridge> last time it was on the middle-atlantic ridge somewhere between
            the acores and iceland
<K_F> ulm: exactly
<b-man> dilfridge: Azores? :+p
<slyfox> dilfridge: sounld like almost in london :)
<WilliamH> Do US devs go to fosdem regularly?                           [21:40]
<dilfridge> not many... some, occasionally
<K_F> WilliamH: at leat some have recently
<dilfridge> with leio, whissi & slyfox I guess the center moved east a lot
<K_F> robbat at minconf in prague, prometheanfire at FOSDEM
<Whissi> :)
<K_F> but going from Norway to e.g New York is relatively cheap, so I don't
      mind paying for that for a weekend                                [21:41]
<K_F> we could even combine that with some conference
<WilliamH> K_F: heh, I'm probably 3-4 hours from NY.
<WilliamH> maybe more depending.
* dilfridge is probably 3-4h from oslo                                  [21:42]
<b-man> Alright, fine.  A conference at my place.  Just south of D.C.
<WilliamH> dilfridge: I have no clue how far I am from you. ;-)
<K_F> the meetup we had in Mainz was useful to me
<dilfridge> WilliamH: in terms of airplane hours probably 8 or so, roughly
<K_F> and frankfurt is quite the international hub
<b-man> I have a special room just for the council members.
<dilfridge> or, wait
<leio> I wouldn't be thrilled with dealing with US visas and policies of the
       day and whatnot.
<leio> I think around FOSDEM is the most likely pick                    [21:43]
<b-man> We can go shoot guns, drink beer, and discuss Gentoo all in one day.
<leio> but indeed before or after it, which might get influenced by work work
<K_F> leio: yes, I'd expect the friday before FOSDEM to be a good day
<K_F> with participation also during weekend
<b-man> Who's in?
<leio> having in mind also that FOSDEM has a lot of other developers and
       gentoo users around to pick their brains too.
<veremitz> beware Beer .. Thursday?                                     [21:44]
<leio> FOSDEM is on my agenda to finally get to again, at least
<b-man> Meh, no one wants to come to the South I guess.
<leio> but meanwhile we can do informal voice meetings and brainstorm things,
       and actually try to lead Gentoo from there
<Whissi> +1 informal voice meetings                                     [21:45]
<b-man> Whissi: we have peanut butter and orange juice
* WilliamH is fine with informal voice meetings
* WilliamH isn't sure about a meetup at fosdem though
<Whissi> b-man: You mean rancid butter because you cannot sell them anymore...
         ;)
<K_F> I'm not rally a fan of informal meetings without recording/logging, but
      if we go for that it needs to be proper open source solution at least
<Whissi> K_F: Before we do any formal meeting let's have at least one informal
         talk to check if there are any technical issues.               [21:46]
<K_F> Whissi: sure, that makes sense
<K_F> but it likely should be available as listen-only to others as well if we
      do                                                                [21:47]
<WilliamH> K_F: I think you are going to block me from coming unfortunately if
           you insist on an open source solution...
<K_F> WilliamH: no mumble etc alternative?
<WilliamH> K_F: not that I know of.
<K_F> iirc nextcloud has voice options?
<WilliamH> What is nextcloud?                                           [21:48]
<K_F> so I'd expect if someone runs that as host we'd be fine already, I
      haven't bothered moving on from ownCloud though
<K_F> WilliamH: is that a serious question or rethorical?
<b-man> Gentoo infra voice!
<leio> I think it's more about what is accessible without doing GUI desktop
       a11y for him.
<Whissi> When we do an informal meeting I am not sure if we need to record
         anything. And to be honest, I wouldn't like it. At least for the
         first one. But for any official meeting, of course...          [21:49]
<leio> maybe we should continue specifics outside meeting
<b-man> No need for informal
<WilliamH> K_F: the only accessible voice chat options I know of are hangouts
           and zoom.
<WilliamH> K_F: or maybe skype.
<WilliamH> K_F: I do most of that stuff from a windows box.
<leio> but as a concrete try somewhere, I suggest council meeting time, but in
       say 2 weeks, not the formal meeting time                         [21:50]
<K_F> yeah, not really much use discussing this during meeting.. but I don't
      like relying on non-open-source alternatives in general for official
      stuff
<WilliamH> leio: Right.
* dilfridge will be on vacation then, but it might work anyway
<slyfox> should work even better with beach background                  [21:51]
<K_F> I'm for it as long as it is (i) open source server (ii) client in Gentoo
      repository
<WilliamH> leio: as I said above, I do most of this type of thing from
           Windows.
<WilliamH> leio: We use hangouts all the time at the office so I'm most
           familiar with that.                                          [21:52]
<K_F> or client is platform independent, nextCloud might qualify
<ulm> I think the technical details could also be discussed after the meeting
<ulm> any other topic for open floor?
<slyfox> nope
<K_F> not from me
<b-man> Cats
<b-man> Damnit.                                                         [21:53]
<Whissi> Nothing from me.
<b-man> My cat is in kidney failure :(
<b-man> ^ legit
<K_F> b-man: I don't care
* ulm bangs the gavel
<ulm> meeting closed
<b-man> K_F: cats lives matter
<slyfox> \o/ thanks all!
<b-man> Alright, too many beers for me.  I'm off.
*** ulm (~ulm@gentoo/developer/ulm) has set the topic for #gentoo-council:
    "180th meeting: 2018-09-09 *** 19:00 UTC *** |
    https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20180909T19 |
    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council |
    https://dev.gentoo.org/~dilfridge/decisions.html"                   [21:54]