path: root/2013/meeting-01-20.log

20:00  * NeddySeagoon bangs the virtual gavel to open the Jan 20, 2013 Trustees Meeting
20:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Roll call
20:00 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, quantumsummers dabbott rich0  ?
20:00 <@dabbott> here glad you made it :)
20:01 <@NeddySeagoon> I knackered but I'm here   :)
20:01 <@NeddySeagoon> I should be logging - both my VPS and my shiney new dedicated servers are here
20:02 <@quantumsummers> howdy folks
20:02 <@dabbott> hi Dad
20:02 <@NeddySeagoon> hi quantumsummers - hows things ?
20:02 <@quantumsummers> really well, thanks. My son turns 1 in 3 days
20:03 <@quantumsummers> getting big, walking, etc
20:03 <@NeddySeagoon> talking? getting cheeky? curious .. always asking why ?
20:04 <@NeddySeagoon> We'll give rich0 and robbat2 a few minuites
20:04 <@NeddySeagoon> but we have a quorum
20:04 <@quantumsummers> heh, not talking too much yet
20:04 <@quantumsummers> just a few words, etc
20:05 <@NeddySeagoon> heh - Mum, Dad, beer ... just the essentials
20:05 <@dabbott> tits
20:05 <@NeddySeagoon> That will be Mom not Mum
20:06 <@NeddySeagoon> OK, thats 5 min past so lets start.  
20:06 <@NeddySeagoon> Copyright Policies ... we have to nail this one, its important to everyone who contributes
20:07 <@quantumsummers> main thing we need to do is keep it easy to contrib
20:08 <@NeddySeagoon> Copyright the Foundation is just a convience, so we can be the target of action and take action on Gentoo owned code.  As long as we have a licence to use the code, copyright is no so important
20:08 <@quantumsummers> I agree with NeddySeagoon
20:09 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, where are you getting with legal advice?  Can we usefully start a public discussion yet ?
20:09 <@quantumsummers> I think we can. The SFLC is a fan of a CLA-type document generally
20:09 <@quantumsummers> however, I think some broad discussion would be good
20:10 <@quantumsummers> I would consider posting to a ML of other OSS non-profits
20:10 <@quantumsummers> if you guys think it would be good
20:10 <@NeddySeagoon> Greg-KH seems to have some strong opinions - make sure he sees the discussion
20:10 <@quantumsummers> we are somewhat unique in comparison, since we are a distro, not a software project
20:10 <@quantumsummers> Greg is on that list
20:11 <@quantumsummers> I will CC all trustees individually
20:11 <@NeddySeagoon> well, we package upstream - our IPR is portage and the tree.  Does that make us a distro ?
20:11 <@quantumsummers> in fact, I would like to see you all on that list anyway
20:11 <@rich0> I'm here...
20:11 <@NeddySeagoon> welcome rich0 
20:11 <@rich0> Got the time wrong...
20:11 <@quantumsummers> we package and sometimes patch
20:11 <@quantumsummers> hi Rich
20:12 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, ok.  Do you have a link for that ML ?
20:12 <@quantumsummers> at any rate, this is something we should discuss in daylight
20:12 <@quantumsummers> NeddySeagoon: its private, but let me see if I can find a link
20:12 <@rich0> I need to ping some of the contacts I reached out to before the holidays.
20:12 <@quantumsummers> JacobKM from django invited me
20:12 <@rich0> We did have a discussion on -nfp thouhg.
20:12 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, can you organise invites ?
20:12 <@quantumsummers> yes
20:12 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, please do then
20:13 <@rich0> What are we doing?
20:13 <@quantumsummers> this list http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/foundations
20:13  * NeddySeagoon is sipping a beer
20:13 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, all of them ?
20:14 <@quantumsummers> NeddySeagoon: all of whom?
20:14 <@quantumsummers> OSS foundations?
20:14 <@quantumsummers> no
20:14 <@quantumsummers> but a large number
20:14 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, forget it.  Can we subscribe trustees@  ?
20:14 <@quantumsummers> no
20:14 <@quantumsummers> needs to be an individual
20:14 <@quantumsummers> human
20:14 <@quantumsummers> from what I recall of the rules
20:14 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm OK with that
20:14 <@quantumsummers> its a good list
20:15 <@quantumsummers> low traffic
20:15 <@quantumsummers> I mostly lurk
20:15 <@rich0> From the discussion on our own lists it seemed like there really wasn't much consensus for having the foundation own copyright on our projects.
20:16 <@rich0> At least a few basically said they'd stop contributing if that were the policy, most notably Greg.
20:16 <@quantumsummers> seems like we can make it optional, as long as the license it free
20:16 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, I've filled in the form
20:16 <@rich0> I was thinking that a KDE-like approach would make sense.
20:16 <@rich0> They make it optional.
20:16 <@quantumsummers> makes sense to me
20:16 <@rich0> And use the FSFe FLA.
20:17 <@rich0> That leaves us with details like what to do with our copyright notice lines.  That could use some legal advice.  Not sure what KDE does there - should be easy enough to check on that.
20:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Once we have boild down the useful options have the discussion on -nfp and an announce on -announce
20:17 <@rich0> We did have discussion already.
20:17 <@rich0> Though not a final proposal.
20:17 <@quantumsummers> good to note that you are talking mainly EU-type policy
20:18 <@rich0> Well, the FLA is designed to handle both US and EU regimes.
20:18 <@quantumsummers> ah, good
20:18 <@rich0> We should have a clear policy that everybody agrees to when becoming a dev - just stating that they license their contributions under GPL2+, and so on.
20:18 <@rich0> Even that gets a bit messy now that we have eudev.
20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, I'm not sure our copyright lines have any legal standaing as nobody ever filled in a copyright assignment form. fmmcor thought that the line in ebuilds would be OK in the USA though
20:19 <@rich0> If we won't hold contributions I'd really prefer the GPL2+ to GPL2, otherwise we're stuck like Linux.
20:19 <@rich0> NeddySeagoon, I'm not sure either.  That's why we need to come up with a new policy on those.
20:19 <@rich0> We can't have every ebuild have at the top a list of everybody who ever contributed to that one ebuild.
20:19 <@rich0> Or I guess we could, but that would be a mess.
20:19 <@rich0> Would like to have something reasonably simple.
20:20 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, nope, nor can we list every contributor in a file - we don't even know them all
20:20 <@rich0> Maybe something generic, like copyright gentoo developers, see cvs log for current list of contributors or something.
20:20 <@rich0> That definitely requires legal advice.
20:20 <@NeddySeagoon> what about non dev contributions from bugs ?
20:21 <@quantumsummers> a separate "contributors" file would suffice, but I thought that the cvs/git log would be sufficient
20:21 <@NeddySeagoon> do we know enough yet to post on -nfp ?
20:21 <@rich0> Well, Linux does it like this: Copyright (C) 1995-1996  Linus Torvalds & authors (see below)
20:22 <@NeddySeagoon> yeah - its maintaining the see below ...
20:22 <@rich0> They also have a concept of signoff where the person doing the commit declares that the code is unencumbered and GPL2.
20:22 <@NeddySeagoon> I like that
20:22 <@rich0> That is also my concern.
20:23 <@rich0> In Linux they seem to stick a header in every file that varies.
20:23 <@dabbott> can we remove the copyright from ebuilds
20:24 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets stop this here - it sonds like there are too many options to open discussion on -nfp just yet
20:24 <@rich0> We already opened discussion on this.
20:24 <@rich0> Thought it must not have been on -nfp - it wasn't in the archives.
20:24 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, as nobody signed a copyright assignment ... maybe
20:25 <@rich0> Err, it was discussed, but the archives are incomplete...
20:25 <@quantumsummers> gentoo-dev too, seems the discussion was split
20:25 <@rich0> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/82061
20:25 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, it wasn't organised - it started from eudev changing all the copyright notices ... which was just wrong
20:26 <@rich0> Well, in any case, I think the discussion was still useful.
20:26 <@quantumsummers> it is/was
20:26 <@rich0> I was mainly interested in general direction, not details.
20:26 <@quantumsummers> seems like I had a point to add, but never finished the email.
20:26 <@rich0> It sounds like we're going to move away from foundation ownership.
20:26 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, it was
20:26 <@rich0> I think the next step is to focus on that direction and step down a level in detail.
20:26 <@quantumsummers> mainly: if you an an independent contractor the IP rules are different for software projects and generally not considered "work for hire"
20:27 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, agreed
20:27 <@rich0> The copyright line will be a big issue.  So will be tracking what licenses are used by what files, and ensuring contributors are aware they are licensing appropriately.
20:27 <@quantumsummers> yes
20:27 <@dabbott> yep
20:27 <@rich0> I also want to make sure we don't get stuck on GPL2 - so everybody really needs to license 2+
20:28 <@NeddySeagoon> If we revert copyright to original authors, I don't see it being an issue
20:28 <@rich0> At least for all new contributions - we could argue that past ones are already covered, or not, but over time that becomes less of an issue.
20:28 <@rich0> It is if we want to make Gentoo GPL4+ or something in the future.
20:28 <@rich0> We can do that if we're 2+, not if we're 2-only.
20:29 <@NeddySeagoon> copyright and licence are separate issues
20:29 <@rich0> Maybe we'll never do that, but seems wise to be prepared for it.
20:29 <@rich0> Sure, but it is still something that we need covered by the policy.
20:29 <@rich0> If we don't have copyright, then we need a license to use our own code.
20:29 <@NeddySeagoon> agreed
20:29 <@rich0> So we need to make sure we get that from contributors, much as linux/etc does.
20:29 <@NeddySeagoon> but the code is licences anyway
20:30 <@NeddySeagoon> lets move on
20:30 <@rich0> So, what are our next steps then?
20:31 <@quantumsummers> I have requested invitations for each trustee to the floss foundations list I mentioned above
20:32 <@NeddySeagoon> Consolidate what we know for the advice we have and open a discussion on -nfp.  Seek more advice if we don't yet have enough and a view of how we want to end emp
20:32 <@NeddySeagoon> When we go to -nfp it should be with a reccommendation
20:32 <@rich0> Ok, I'll open a next-steps discussion on -nfp
20:32 <@quantumsummers> we need to formalize what the KDE-type agreement actually means for Gentoo in practice
20:32 <@dabbott> thanks rich0 
20:32 <@rich0> Maybe send it to trustees@ first
20:32 <@quantumsummers> as it seems like that is the best option
20:32 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, sould like a plan
20:32 <@quantumsummers> +1
20:33 <@rich0> It will be a straw man that actually starts to look like a policy document.
20:33 <@rich0> Greg/etc can pick it apart, and that is fine.
20:33 <@rich0> Once we get past that we can start getting formal legal advice.
20:33 <@rich0> I might also re-ping the FSF/etc.
20:33 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, make sure Greg knows its there
20:33 <@rich0> They basically took a big holiday break.
20:33 <@NeddySeagoon> yes - that sounds good
20:33 <@rich0> Oh, I'll CC to dev-announce to start it.
20:33 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, Certified Public Accountant and 501(c)(3) registration status
20:33 <@rich0> Greg hasn't had trouble notcing them so far.  :)
20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> hehe
20:34 <@quantumsummers> nothing too interesting to report here. I know that Rich was asking earlier about filings, etc. We are all finished there (save reimbursing postage for David and I)
20:35 <@NeddySeagoon> I was expecting an invoice from the CPA
20:35 <@quantumsummers> I need to run a couple things by our SFLC contact soon regarding the 1023 app
20:35 <@rich0> Can you send me dates for the tracker?
20:36 <@quantumsummers> NeddySeagoon: yes, let me talk with them in the morning. It can take them 90 days to invoice (something I found odd, but whatever)
20:36 <@rich0> Oh, and that includes the 990, AG-Missouri, annual report Missouri, and annual report New Mexico?
20:36 <@quantumsummers> rich0: annual report was filed by Nov 15th
20:36 <@rich0> Which one?
20:36 <@quantumsummers> the exact day, I do not recall
20:36 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, thats your bit next.
20:36 <@quantumsummers> let me find my notes
20:36 <@rich0> I'll just put down Nov, but I want to make sure we hit them all.
20:36 <@quantumsummers> surely
20:37 <@rich0> There are 4 documents in all.
20:37 <@NeddySeagoon> the NM one is filed and the web site updated
20:37 <@quantumsummers> yep
20:37 <@dabbott> rich0: there is no Missouri afaik
20:37 <@rich0> dabbott, are you saying it wasn't done, or that you don't think we need to do it?
20:38 <@dabbott> i don't think it was ever set up
20:38 <@quantumsummers> nope. the initial paperwork was not filed. I stopped it for some reason.
20:38 <@quantumsummers> I need to locate my notes
20:38 <@quantumsummers> the main reason was to simplify banking
20:38 <@rich0> Ah, in that case I can drop it from the tracker.
20:38 <@quantumsummers> which is not super important at the moment
20:38 <@quantumsummers> iirc
20:38 <@quantumsummers> let me check on some things here
20:39 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0 over to you and the tracker ...
20:39 <@rich0> Np either way - that is why we have a tracker.  :)
20:39 <@rich0> Just want to check the boxes.
20:39 <@rich0> Well, the tracker just shows the 4 reports I listed above as past-due.
20:39 <@rich0> If both the 990 and the NM reports are done in Nov I can update that.
20:40 <@rich0> The other two I can leave on the list until somebody confirms we never filed, unless we're sure about that now.
20:40 <@dabbott> NM done 990 not sure
20:40 <@rich0> Ok, then I'll only mark NM done.
20:40 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
20:40 <@rich0> The 990 is definitely due though, or at least a request for extension.
20:40 <@quantumsummers> 990-N
20:40 <@quantumsummers> http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Annual-Electronic-Filing-Requirement-for-Small-Exempt-Organizations--Form-990-N-(e-Postcard)
20:40 <@quantumsummers> that is what was filed
20:40 <@rich0> Also, can we get some kind of private git repo for this stuff.
20:41 <@rich0> Scans and such?
20:41 <@quantumsummers> since we have <50,00 in gross receipts per year
20:41 <@rich0> Seems way too painful to figure out if we did something or not.
20:41 <@quantumsummers> rich0: been asking for that for awhile
20:41 <@rich0> Maybe we should ping infra/Robin or something?
20:41 <@quantumsummers> the e-filed 990-N was very simple
20:41 <@NeddySeagoon> Its on -infras todo list
20:41 <@quantumsummers> our CPA actually did it
20:41 <@rich0> Ok, so we're sure 990 was done then?
20:42 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets move on to item 4 Bugs
20:42 <@rich0> If so I'll mark it as Nov-2012?
20:42 <@quantumsummers> I am still waiting for amended forms for previous years
20:42 <@quantumsummers> since we need some done
20:42 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, where from ?
20:42 <@quantumsummers> at any rate, there is no penalty
20:42 <@rich0> Ok, and are we sure we're not filed in Missouri?
20:42 <@quantumsummers> the beginning of the foundation to 2009 or 2010 
20:42 <@rich0> Wasn't sure if that was a confirmed yes/no.
20:42 <@quantumsummers> rich0: yes, sure
20:42 <@rich0> ok, I'll drop those then.
20:42 <@quantumsummers> positive
20:42 <@rich0> That's it for the tracker.
20:43 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets move on to item 4 Bugs
20:43 <@quantumsummers> there were some reasons that I wrote down to let you all know, but I am having some trouble finding the notes
20:43 <@quantumsummers> mainly, not necessary at this time
20:43 <@quantumsummers> per cpa recommendation
20:44 <@NeddySeagoon> Bug 447486 is the first one that needs discussion
20:45 <@quantumsummers> ah, I think should be ok, no?
20:45 <@NeddySeagoon> Originally I was in favour ... but it seems poor value for money
20:45 <@NeddySeagoon> Also, why not an infra box if there is one ?
20:45 <@dabbott> the more i think about it he needs a fully sponsered box for stages not personal
20:45 <@quantumsummers> we have sufficient HW for his purposes, I believe
20:45 <@rich0> ++
20:46 <@quantumsummers> its a matter of getting infra to finish up the ganeti nodes
20:46 <@quantumsummers> and make the easily available
20:46 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, if we say yes we have to say yes to other similar applcations
20:46 <@rich0> I too would rather spend a bit more on an infra box if we needed it than having critical stuff going on elsewhere.
20:46 <@rich0> Plus, that stuff needs to be documented and such.
20:46 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, +1
20:46 <@dabbott> rich0: agreed
20:46 <@quantumsummers> in this case, let's not fund this request. Whomever sees Jorge next buys him some beers
20:46 <@rich0> Seems like stages break from time to time because only a few do them and knowledge is too compartmentalized.
20:47 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, that will be robbat2 at FOSDEM
20:47 <@rich0> And if he wants to work with infra and they come back with a proposal I'm all for it.
20:47 <@quantumsummers> very good
20:47 <@dabbott> yes
20:47 <@NeddySeagoon> Who will comment on the bug ?
20:47 <@quantumsummers> we could even purchase a dedicated machine for him to use, in the case we do not have the HW. However, I think we do
20:47 <@quantumsummers> I will comment
20:48 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks quantumsummers 
20:48 <@dabbott> yep thanks quantumsummers 
20:48 <@NeddySeagoon> I think the others can wait ... the copyright stuff we have already discussed anyway
20:49 <@NeddySeagoon> 6. Membership Applications
20:49 <@NeddySeagoon> Community Members Damien Moody based on work on Gentoo Studio
20:49 <@dabbott> yes
20:49 <@rich0> seconded :)
20:49 <@rich0> aye
20:50 <@NeddySeagoon> I've provided encouragement and support to this project so am not neutral
20:50 <@quantumsummers> aye
20:50 <@NeddySeagoon> I vote yest too
20:50 <@NeddySeagoon> I'll write the email and ask for his gpg key
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> Cleanup
20:51 <@rich0> FYi - support and encouragement is not a conflict.  :)
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, thanks
20:51 <@rich0> I'd hope we support and encourage half the stuff we discuss.  :)
20:51 <@quantumsummers> email sent
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> Date of Next Meeting - 17 Feb 2013 19:00 UTC
20:51 <@dabbott> NeddySeagoon: I added a folder for 2013 please put the logs here thanks http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/minutes/2013/
20:51 <@quantumsummers> to Jorge
20:51 <@quantumsummers> that meeting, I may miss or be late
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, cvs -d up   ?
20:52 <@quantumsummers> will be traveling back home
20:52 <@rich0> wfm
20:52 <@NeddySeagoon> wfm too
20:52 <@quantumsummers> I should be in time, but one never knows
20:52 <@dabbott> fine here
20:53 <@NeddySeagoon> Responsibilities - I'll post the log - It will be from UTC+1 as my new server is in France
20:53 <@dabbott> NeddySeagoon: cat .cvsrc 
20:53 <@dabbott> cvs -q -z0
20:53 <@dabbott> diff -u -B
20:53 <@dabbott> checkout -P
20:53 <@dabbott> update -d -P
20:53 <@dabbott> cvs update
20:53 <@quantumsummers> the -d -P is key there
20:53 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott thanks -  I'll need to make a .cvsrc
20:53 <@dabbott> i will do the motions 1
20:53 <@quantumsummers> when are we moving to git ;)
20:53 <@rich0> Ugh - when will we ever get on git.  :)
20:53 <@quantumsummers> heheh
20:54 <@rich0> Especially for the website.  Don't get why that is still on cvs.
20:54 <@NeddySeagoon> yuck - I barely know enough CVS yet
20:54 <@rich0> I can see why our ebuilds are a mess.
20:54 <@quantumsummers> that financial update bug, that can be closed yeah?
20:54 <@rich0> Actually, you're due on 3-4Q quarterly updates.
20:54 <@quantumsummers> rich0: there was some movement towards git for the web stuff
20:54 <@dabbott> quantumsummers: fine by me
20:54 <@quantumsummers> rich0: I stopped doing quarterly updates
20:54 <@rich0> Oh?
20:55 <@quantumsummers> mainly, they are not necessary
20:55 <@rich0> There was a request back in Sep-Oct to add quarterly updates to the tracker.
20:55 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, isn't that a NM requirement ?
20:55 <@quantumsummers> actually, I never did them
20:55 <@rich0> I'll remove them again.
20:55 <@quantumsummers> not requred, only yearly
20:55 <@quantumsummers> if you guys would like to see some quarterly numbers, I can do that
20:55 <@rich0> Yeah, all the NM stuff is in the tracker.
20:55 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm all for not inventing work
20:55 <@quantumsummers> just seemed like extra wor
20:55 <@quantumsummers> work
20:55 <@rich0> Honestly, I'd really like to see everything in git so we could just see whatever we want.
20:55 <@rich0> And stop pestering you.  :)
20:55 <@rich0> But...
20:56 <@rich0> As long as we're approving by line-item I don't think we need the quarterly numbers.
20:56 <@NeddySeagoon> Any other Business ?
20:56 <@quantumsummers> well, I have a gitolite setup with ~400 repos. we could use it for now if you want
20:56 <@quantumsummers> although I think asking infra would take little time
20:56 <@rich0> Well, the thing about git is that it is easy to migrate.
20:57 <@rich0> Just push to a new repository.
20:57 <@rich0> So, I'm all for getting something running now and migrating later.
20:57 <@rich0> But let's aim to get it on infra.
20:57 <@quantumsummers> I love git, been hosting my own setup (first gitosis now gitolite) for 5 years or so
20:57 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm concerned about the bus factor if its not on -infra hardware
20:57 <@rich0> Heck, you can just email bundles around if you have to.
20:57 <@quantumsummers> tis true
20:57 <@quantumsummers> let me see about infra real fast
20:58 <@rich0> Well, as long as it is published SOMEWHERE we can all clone.
20:58 <@rich0> And published on non-infra is better than what we have now.
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, agreed
20:58 <@rich0> But let's try to get infra going because that is the ideal state.
20:58 <@quantumsummers> poking them now
20:58 <@quantumsummers> we just need 1 repo
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> Any other Business ?
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, ?
20:58 <@quantumsummers> of course, submodules would be nice for a few things
20:58 <@dabbott> none here
20:59 <@rich0> nope
20:59 <@NeddySeagoon> nothing from me
20:59 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers,  AoB  ?
20:59 <@quantumsummers> nope
20:59 <@quantumsummers> err wait
20:59 <@quantumsummers> nope (ha ha)
20:59 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, AoB ?
20:59 <@quantumsummers> I did get the PO from google for GSOC this past year
21:00 <@quantumsummers> I need to add that to the bug
21:00  * quantumsummers hides
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Did you invoice too ?
21:00 <@quantumsummers> we were paid in December 
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Ah ok
21:00 <@quantumsummers> Donnie does the invoicing
21:00 <@quantumsummers> I just collect the money and paperwork
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Open Floor
21:02  * NeddySeagoon bangs the virtual gavel to close the meeting